Interview with Wisconsin Public Radio

February 19, 2024

I’m a Dave-of-all-trades and master of some. Please feel free to ask me anything about:

Sustainable off-grid living
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Going off-grid

https://www.wpr.org/shows/larry-meiller-show/going-grid

Jill

Going off-grid has become a catch-phrase in the last decade or so but what does it really truly take to accomplish it? I'm Jill Nadeau and this is the Ideas Network. Our guest today has succeeded in going off grid and has written a book to help you do the same thing. With us is Dave Welder. His new book is called Forth to Basics: A Guide to Going Off Grid (and living more with less.) Have you gone off grid? What has your experience been? What questions do you have about the process? Give us a call! We'd like to hear from you. 800-642-1234 or send an email to ideas @wpr.org.

Dave welcome!

Dave

Oh, I’m happy to be here Jill. Thanks for inviting me.

Jill

You bet!

Dave

And hello Wisconsin!.

Jill

Hahahaha..well, we loved your book.

Dave

… and beyond!

Jill

…. and beyond, that's correct. Before we get into the weeds here, let’s just talk about the term off grid. What does that actually mean?

Dave

Well for most people it just means you're off of the electric grid and you're not getting electric power from elsewhere. In addition, we live a little more primitively in that we don't have indoor plumbing. We have an outhouse and we have, uh, we have water. But most of our energy is from our solar panels and if we need more , we just crank up a generator for a few minutes.

Jill

So definitely a little bit more than what we think of us off grid.

Dave

Yeah, it's the catch term these days. We're just living using the best knowledge we can glean from the past and use some high-tech knowledge and put them together. We've been doing it for seven years and it's been great!

Jill

Yeah that's wonderful! You wrote in your book that you were inspired by a documentary, a PBS documentary I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with. Why don’t you tell us about that?

Dave

Yes, Dick Proenneke did the…well the film I guess. Its called ,the , what is it called again?

Jill

Into the …

Dave

Yea, I forgot the name of it already.I got a , I got a brain fade here.

Jill

Gosh thats funny

Alone in the Wilderness.!

Dave

Alone in their Wilderness!

Jill

Yes, I’ve got the book here, Dave doesn't have his book.

Dave

He built his cabin in Alaska by himself and lived there for many years and a lot of people have seen that and I saw it when I was a kid and thought, woah! Wonder if I could do that?

Jill

And you did it !

Dave

And I did it in and I did it with Veronica, my wife and we love it and now we know we can do it!

Jill

Yea, so what finally pushed you and your wife just to make this leap from you know …. were you like, living in the city?

Dave

Yeah, We were living in Minneapolis, had been for 20 years and it was just a struggle to make ends meet as everyone knows, and we just decided well, what's the least amount we could get by with while still being comfortable ? It took a lot of thought and finally we just jumped. It was mainly financial, but there were other reasons, many other reasons

Jill,

So doing what you did um, .together, that could break up a lot of people. Has it strengthened your relationship?

Dave

Yes , it has!…….. Veronica is nodding. Uh huh, uh huh.

Jill

Hahahahaha

Dave

Well, if you get through some hard times together, it is definitely.

Jill

Sure, sure

Dave

And I wouldn't say it was all hard times.

Jill

Yea, I know if someone's doing this, maybe not with a spouse but with another person or a group, what they should be thinking about before they even do anything?

Dave

Well, they should plan. Do a lot of planning. Um, I’ll look to other people who have done it .There's a lot online. There's books out there. Just study it. Um, also, ask your elders. My dad lived till 95. He told me about life in Wisconsin in the 20s and the 30s. That wasn't easy.

Jill

Dave

And I learned a lot from him. I learn, I learn from everywhere.

Jill

Uh huh. So what was it that made you want to write this guide for other people? When did you feel that you were actually ready to do that ?

Dave

Well, about the time I was finishing our house. It was 2020 and I had one of those Noah-moments where I was finishing the roof and heard about the pandemic. So, I was resting my bones for a while cause I was kind of sore from building. Veronica too. And I was just thinking, I need to get some of these thoughts out of my head and down on paper. And, um,, it just came came to me and I put together a good team and a great graphic designer, Anniken Fuller and I just made it happen.

Jill

And really, the graphics are beautiful. Lots of pictures too, which I'm sure people appreciate in a guide like this. There are a lot of asides and you know, how to make a a good campfire (laughter).I want to try your process.

Dave

And I wanted to lay down some common sense.

Jill

Uh huh..I think you hit the nail on the head there,

pun intended, but common sense, because really, that's what you need don't you to survive?

Dave

Well more than that, you need good sense. I don’t know if common sense is always good? (Laughter form both)

Jill

Not as common or as the good common .

Dave

Yeah, I’ve been struggling with that one.

Jill

I thought it was really neat that you mixed in stuff about like, how to build a shelter, and sanitation, and what not but, you also talk about the mental aspect of it. Why was that important for you to include?

Dave

Well, often that’s the that's the biggest part, the mental aspect. I always go back to the saying, ”Whether you think you can or cannot do something… you’re right “ !

Jill,

Yes.

Dave

I had to convince myself I could do it, or we could do it. I didn't have to convince Veronica. She was ready. So yeah, you just go for it.

Jill

Does it take a special kind of person to do that? Do they need some kind of traits or skills?

Dave

Well, I was blessed with an artistic brain and good hand eye coordination so I was able to build this without a lot of training. I asked a lot of people, “ what is the code on this?” so you know, I just kind of built it as I went along and you become an expert by the time you’re done

Jill

Very true, so what about the name “forth” as an FORTH to basics? Where did that come from?

Dave

Back to Basics is what I was shooting for but that was already taken. It's a really good book too. I recommended it, hmmmm, . Forth is going forward and that's what we gotta do. We gotta go forward, using some common sense, but don't be afraid of high technology If it's useful .We have Wi-Fi.

Jill

Yeah I know it's a good point I mean, that's part of your survival tools, right? Being able to use things like that.

Dave

Yeah. Without Wi-Fi out there we couldn’t have written the book.

Jill

Right

Dave

I couldn't do business… Well, I could, but it’d be much more difficult.

Jill

Yeah ,exactly because you have, you rent out your original shelter don't you? Like on short term rental?

Dave

We were actually gonna live in that cabin. That was our retirement plan and then we realized we can make money and we can share our land and our beauty with others and we can also build another house. I don't like to just keep building but it was it was the right thing to do and I was able to use my knowledge of energy and environment to build it without ruining the environment around us and without making it too expensive.

Jill

Hmm, uh, and is it possible just to go kind of off grid? I mean using it in the broad sense of the word? Um, some of the things that you used in your home they don’t, you don't have to do all of them.

Dave

Yea, no absolutely not in fact, we have many friends in the city that could benefit from some of these tips. If you’re on grid, I’d say stay on it. Until it gets too expensive for you, but in our case it was either that or spend $20,000 bringing in a line you have to cut down a couple hundred trees it's like, no way.

Jill

Yeah

Dave

We've got solar now. We've got other things at work.

Jill

Yes, um what are some the other benefits of being out there and off the grid?

Dave

Ooh ..

Jill

Keep going! (Hahahaha)

Dave

Yeah, well you're in nature for one thing. You’re at the the tap. You’re drinking from the tap where the oxygen is made, um, there's health benefits, mental health benefits for sure, financial benefits. We reduced our overhead by half, almost half .

Jill

You have a chart in the book that shows that. yea it's a big difference .

Dave

I think everybody should grab a pen and paper and know what their overhead is and where they could trim down

Jill

I think It's a really good idea because I think a lot of times we just don't realize where the money is going.

Dave

I never knew how much I was spending for food until I actually started tracking it.

Jill

Yea, yea definitely. So for those who don't have land. What should they be looking for when they are looking for a property to do this like you did .

Dave

You've got to do a lot of homework. First of all, I do have some some guides and some links in there for finding land. It is difficult to do.If you want to, just find a 5 acre chunk of land, forest. It's it's probably gonna be hard. Some land, they only sell 10 or 20 acres so you've gotta have a chunk of change to do that. I have tips. It's not easy, but it can be done. People do it. I would say just look for if there's good water there. That's very important. It's more than just the view. It's ,it's water. I’d even go talk to the town uh, government and just ask them what the pitfalls are, what are the requirements because they do change between counties and townships.

Jill

And they do, it's crazy how much they do. And we're talking with Dave Weber about his book Forth to Basics a guide to goin’ off-grid. What questions do you have about living more with less? Join in by calling 800-6421234 or you can send an email to ideas@wpr.org and this is Larry Miller show I'm Jill Nadeau. Clara Newport is our on air producer today and Tyler Ditter, is our technical Director stay with us at 11:45. We’re gong to interview forager extroardinaire Samual Thayer about his new field guide. And before we go on I'll let you know that it's Dave Welder. I was saying it wrong. I wrote it down wrong so all my fault and the book is right in front of me! So anyway, let's get back to some questions and please if you've got any questions for Dave about how he did it or maybe how are you in your area can help be a little bit more self-sufficient lines are open 800-6421234

So, you talked about digging a well - obviously water is really really important, so how did you get water to your location?

Dave

We use water from three sources we get ,we actually still buy water for drinking. We have is a Sand-point well .Very simple. You can't use that in every situation. some cities and townships don't like that if you live by a lake or water, they don't really like that either ‘cause they don’t want you poking holes. You know, In potential spots were pollutants can get into the water. So the sand-point is good .We don't use it a whole lot. We actually capture a lot of our rainwater for washing. Washing dishes, clothes whatever but typically we do have a jug of water a day per the both of us, each of us. You know and that's about what a buck twenty five now? a gallon? And you know, I don't like using all the plastic but it works.

Jill

Right. I think you could go to some supermarkets and get your water bottles refilled can't you?

Dave

Yes, For sure

Jill

That's a good way of doing it too. So have you been having any problems because of the dry summer and spring we've had so far?

Dave

None other than our physical problems. (Laughter)

Jill

(Laughter) Your hay fever

Dave

I have hay fever and it's not comfortable. But not really, Our garden is OK. We have a 300 gallon tote of rainwater that we can water with when it gets too dry.

Jill

How big of a garden do you have ?

Dave

Well, it’s around our house. it's not huge OK maybe it’s, I don't know how big .I would say,..

Jill

Why did you decide to go around the house instead of having a you know, a plot?

Dave

Because the rainwater is all there. I can have barrels and totes and then and you can also watch your garden, For deer and what not.

Jill

That's true

Dave

Yea, it's it's not that big. I would say we could probably get about $500 worth of food out of it

Jill

Dave

Per year, but it's not what you grow, it's what you ultimately eat.

Jill

Right

Dave

And I don't know, if I were eating $500 dollars worth sure,

Jill

Where do you get your foods then?

Dave

We're very lucky because we have farm supply that has everything down the road. Yea, everything from booze to boots to bread.

Jill

Oh my gosh yeah

Dave

Yeah, so it’s not like living in Alaska where you have to fly it in.

Jill

Very true. Very true. We gotta call from Bill in Somerset.

Hi, Bill. Hello go right ahead.

Dave

Hey Bill.

Bill (caller)

Yes, just a comment, I live in the country on a couple hundred acres. I grew up, not really on a farm. We are reasonably self sufficient for the short term. I think there's an advantage of people thinking about how can they, uh, do fine for a week or two. We heat with woodI I can heat the house without having to have any electricity with the uh, gravity system and I have solar and generator back up at the idea of. How can we do fine for a week or two, without power if we have to?

Jill

Okay. Do you have an answer for him?

Dave

Oh, , well Bill, It sounds like you're doing what we're doing. Yeah, we've got 400 W of solar that we use to run our electronics and things but we do have a generator too and if you have to, fire up the uh, chainsaw no not a chainsaw but a circular saw, we just plug it into your generator. That works for us. The generator does burn gas but not as much as you think. It's probably more to just drive into town to get the gas

Jill

Probably (laughter)

Dave

I think.We’ve been doing this for seven years so, long-term short term it works.

I tell people it's like being at deer camp all year

Jill

yes yes

Dave

Without all the without all the mess and foul language

Jill

(Laughing) and smells hahahahah

Dave

That too!

Jill

Yes, so one, of course of the other things that you need is a shelter of some sort. .Did you build before you moved? Or did you? How did you do that?

Dave

So we built as we moved.

Jill

Ok.

Dave

We had to transition slowly, carefully. We actually lived in a tent for a while.

Jill

I hope it was the summer!

Dave

Yes! It was summer. We called it the Jungle Room and, yes it was, it was at times difficult but you know, everything seems difficult till you try it.

Jill

That's very true, that’s very true. So you built your first shelter and then you decided to build another one? A little bit bigger I'm assuming ?

Dave

Yea ,and we were gonna just stop. That was going to be our retirement home.

Jill

Right.

Dave

Until we realized we need to make some income and we realized with this new Hipcamp, Airbnb thing, we could do that and make an income off of our little cozy cabin and then build another one. It was mostly just us. We did have the contractor come in and pour a slab, but other than that, we built the whole thing and tried to use free lumber and free materials as much as we possibly could.

Jill

Where can people find things like that ? You have some hints in your book.

Dave

Free materials? They’re everywhere. Just email your friends and say hey, you got any boards in your garage you wanna get rid of? I did that. You got to go get them.

Jill

Of course

Dave

They might have, they might not be clean. It might have bird poop on them but that doesn't matter.

(Laughter from both)

Jill

Yea, that’ll come off.

Dave

I used about three trailers stacked full of free lumber that way.

Another way is we brought in a sawmill. We had had an Amish fella come in and saw up some logs from our land and that was great and that was very inexpensive.

Jill

Yes,, um, so did you do something, anything different in the new house then you did from the first one because you found it wasn’t quite what you needed?

Dave

Well, it was quite what we needed but you know bigger is nice and I also had learned a lot from the Earthships I read about from down in New Mexico. Just look it up on your search engine. Earthships. They’re built to be self sustaining and I was able to use some of those theories to build our house and I was, I was, I was more worried about keeping it cool then keeping it warm because I know how hot wood stoves can be and how much warmth they can provide. I don't like super hot so I built this big house into a hill so the north side is in earth and then the south side has large windows with an eve over them and the theory is… you wanna have all the sun coming in in the winter and none of it in the summer and just by using the earth’s heat and the sun’s heat, we were able to get by without air conditioning and just wood heat. We do have a fan. We do have fans though. That’s important!

Jill

That's very important. Dave in La Crosse has a question for you. Hi Dave,

Dave (caller)

Hello, hi. Hey Dave, So I'm sure everything didn't go perfect or wonderful so I'm sure there's some things that didn't go well and what would you not do again if you had to do over?

Dave

Uh oh…How much time do we have Jill?

Jill

Hahahaha..we have 15 minutes, go ahead hahaha

Dave

Well, I would've had more firewood and I would've changed my tires last December before the big snow hit because we were stuck for 12 days and it wasn’t a picnic really.

I, yea, I try to say we try to think ahead as much as we can but you know things happen. So what I would've done different? I don’t, I don't know. I don't know if it's anything major.

Jill

See Dave, David is an optimist. That's why he did this in the first place. He's not remembering the hardships.

Dave

Oh I remember them. I just don't want to dwell or you don't wanna dwell on them.

Jill

OK, all right. Then we go to that mental thing again.

So probably the breaking point for a lot of people is that there's no indoor plumbing. What is your system like ?

Dave

We’ve gone back 100 years and we've got an outhouse - and everybody's vision of an outhouse is a disgusting little shack full of flies. Well sometimes but we keep it clean and it doesn't have to be a big deal. One of the things we’ve learned to do from from our forebears is flush with wood ash or wood chips.

Jill

Explain what that means.

Dave

We will just cover it up with a scoop of wood ash that we have pulled out of our wood stove. Veronica actually uses like, a fryer basket to shake it. Shake out the good ash and put that on top. And ashes, you know its, it’s an acid neutral neutralizer, and it uh, keeps the smell down But we also use wood chips in it. And I’ve even heard of using cooked cabbage in your outhouse to improve the bio activity.

Jill

That’s interesting, kind of a fermentation?

Dave

Yes and it does break down quite well.

Jill

What about like, showers or something like that.

Dave

Showers are not as frequent.

Let me tell you that we don't have a hot shower every morning. There are showers and bathing options. I mean, how did they used to do it back in the day?

Jill

Sure

Dave

You put a pot of water on the stove and grabbed a washcloth and just went to town and you know if you make a mess on the floor, I just mop it up

Jill

Hahaha...And you’re done.

Dave

Or in the summer. It's easy , you just go outside and hang up a shower bag and there you go.

Jill

Perfect.

Dave

There's many ways to stay clean and you don't often always need a shower.

Jill

OK and just so just so you guys know Dave and Veronica smell wonderful. (Laughter) so no problem (laughter) So I thought it was interesting in the book where you have a list of what there is wants and needs. So tell us some of the needs that you have to have.

Dave

We all need air and we take it for granted until just recently. You can only go three minutes without air. Water, I think you can only go three days, 3 weeks?

Jill

No. Food is 3 weeks

Dave

Yea, 3 days without water, three weeks without food. Those are the three biggies. You also need some shelter. And you need clothing. I call that portable shelter. How can, how long can you last without that ?

Jill

Depends on what time of year it is. But….

Dave

…but at Lambeau (laughter)

Jill

Yes (laughter)

Dave

Those are needs and then, then I had a bunch of things that I said “wants or needs”? You decide. Do you need a car? Not everybody does. Some of our neighbors don't have ‘em. A lot of our friends and Veronica's kids don't have cars in the city. So you know, that's a want / need. Other things. Wi-Fi, cell phones, all that. That is kind of want /needs. It's up to you but you're not gonna, You’re not gonna die without your cell phone are ya?

Jill

Some people might think.( Laughter) Though that is correct. You will not die without it. Unless there's emergency. We won't go there.

Dave

Oh yes, oh yes.

Jill

What kind of tools should someone bring along for success? You’ve got limited space, right?

Dave

Yeah. I try to borrow tools as much as I can, rather than go out and buy everything. Sometimes you only need them for a while. I do have a list of just basic tools that I used. I mean, most of the time, most of that house was built with a screw gun, a handsaw, tape measure, pencil, you know. I very rarely powered up a power tool unless I was uh, sawing. Like plywood panels or something else. That takes a while by hand. Yea, and you know it's not as loud when you use your own hand tools.

Jill

Now, um you’re using solar for your your heating and your power, basically.

So um, how do you collect it?

Dave

Well, we started out with what they call like, a starter solar kit. It’s not really very big, it’s only 400 W. And that's four100W panels. In addition to that, it goes to a controller which you usually buy with the panels and then goes to batteries. And then after your batteries you have an inverter. So there's four parts to solar. Ours is very small but it does run. We are able to charge all our tool batteries, all of our 20 V tool packs. We’re able to watch TV, surf the web ,communications. What else? It’s, it's just you use the solar for the small energy use things. And we can't have a refrigerator for that reason because that's not gonna work but a lot more solar so we we actually don't have a refrigerator. We have a very very well insulated ice box.

Jill

Uh huh, and use actual chunks of ice.

Dave

And believe it or not, even in THIS weather a couple blocks of ice will last us a week.

Jill

So yea, and you know, we were,Tyler and I were just talking before the show about how people have so much stuff these days. There's more a storage units growing, going going up in houses I think. What advice do you have for people for streamlining? Because obviously, you must've had to do quite a bit when you decided to move there.

Dave

Well that is the rub isn't it? If it's worth something and it’s, it's very much valuable to you. Most the stuff that's valuable to us we have out in the open. We’re using it. We do have a little storage, the Quonset hut that we set up but it's mostly, we call it the boneyard. It's just steel and lumber and parts that we might be able to use. I don't believe in storage lockers myself, I just believe in streamlining. .

Jill

So, when you went to pack to go? How did you decide what you're gonna need for like cooking or you know what all these different things that you needed? You must have some kind of way. I mean, you didn't just pick up everything and she say oh I guess so and pack it in.

Dave

Well we were already in her 50s so we already had stuff and our parents had passed away so we inherited some things and you know, stuff just comes to ya.

Jill

Uh huh.

Dave

We didn't really have to buy a whole lot, other than materials, we had tools, but it was just picking through, do I need this? No? Then there it goes. Either the dumpster, not very often and we didn't put a lot the dumpster but we either gave it away or donated it.

Jill

Um, and in a small space you obviously have to be organized. What tips do you have for keeping a place tidy?

Dave

You just gotta stick at it. You know, every day. If you let it go for a couple weeks you could get by but the flies are gonna come around and even wild animals. If you've got smells at your place you're going to bring them in. So yea, you've gotta just be diligent about it and every so often we just do a clean sweep and um, just gut out the house and then bring back the things you really need and leave the other stuff outside.

Jill

Yeah, that's a great idea!

Dave

And if it's cluttered up outside, take it to the dump or take it to somebody who needs those things.

Jill

Yeah, that's a good tip for all of us. So we are at prime mosquito and tick season. How do you protect yourself from them because you can get some nasty diseases?

Dave

Well, actually bugs come and go, and right now I wouldn't say it's the worst part of the year. You know, there’s flies around and stuff. The ticks were bad in May and June. They're not so bad now. Ticks tend to dehydrate and go away when it's very hot so we don't see a lot of ticks right now. Flies too are always around especially deer flies cause we got a lot of deer!

Jill

Yea, and they bite!

Dave

Those are the ones I don’t like. A lot of times, I don't even go out in the woods, like in August cause I just know there's too much thought of bugs, and bees too. I'd have to suit up like I was going on a spacewalk to go outside! but you know the other day when it rained, we went out in the forest and frolicked around. I even laid down in the mud and let it rain on me. Yes, it was a good mental health.

Jill

Absolutely! I think a lot of us kind of do something like that when the rain hits, so yea, we finally got some where I live. So Nicki in Milwaukee emailed. She was wondering and we talked about finding land to build on which kind of talked about that a little bit the beginning but, uh, do you guys own your land and should people be on or own the land that they build on?

Dave

I am a landowner, but I don't like that name. I prefer land-tenant or land-squatter because I'm not gonna be there forever and that's why we like to share our land and experience. It is hard to find land. Well, I was lucky and that my father bought this chunk of land in 1969. 40 acres went for $1500 bucks back then and you could buy whatever. Lots of it if you want, if you had that. So it got down to, you know, our finances got down to either sell our houses because we each had a house in Minneapolis.

Jill

Oh, ok.

Dave

Or sell the land. And there was no way I was gonna sell my dad’s land. So we had that heads up,

Jill

Uh hmmm

So that’s pretty helpful

Dave

But actually finding land is, it's possible. My biggest tip is just looking at lots of lots.

Jill

Lots of lots.

Dave

How many lots .Lots!

Jill

Yea and it's there's no one place to do it so..

Dave

Yea, look everywhere.

Jill

Is there an ideal size as far as like acreage?

Dave

I've heard from old timers that if you had 5 acres of wooded land, that's enough to keep yourself heated with wood. For the woods actually grow much faster than you can burn it. Now if everybody did that, that would be probably bad, but for us, it works. And yea.

Jill

Uh hmm. We’re talking about foraging with our next guest. Sam Thayer who has that new guide Um, Have you done much experimenting with eating wild plants?

Dave

We have, and by the way, thank you Sam for your books because we've got them! We don't have the new one but we have used your books for reference, so thank you. The stuff we eat the most is the lambs quarter, which is just a common weed that everybody pulls out of their cornfields and throws away and they're actually as delicious as baby spinach. That's our number one forage thing. Yeah, we’ve tried a lot of others. it's just that you can't get a big meal out of it. Might get a taste - a taste of some blackberries or what not, but it's hard to get a big meal unless you really wanna go for it. We've got berries aplenty, but they're hard to get at. The brambles will draw blood.

Jill

Yes they will. I’ve experienced that myself. Yes, there are dangers out there folks.

So how can people get your book Dave?

Dave

Right now it's on forthtobasics.com and that's the only place. I've been trying to get in business with Amazon but I've run into a few, I won't call them walls… I'll just call them high hurdles.

Jill

High hurdles. Ok.

Dave

I'm open to suggestions but it's self published, I had it printed in Eau Claire at Eau Claire Printing and it's a full color book. Lotta pictures. My wife and I are avid photographers and I used to do that for a living on the side by the way, So it’s, it's right now, it's on my site. I'm exploring other options. Maybe I should talk to Sam.

Jill

You should talk to Sam and he is a publisher.

Dave

Oh!

Jill

Yeah, so I think he does. I'm sure he does. So talk to some of your local bookstores too. I’m sure they would love to have this on their shelves.

Dave

Yes, so I've got them at the Local in Eau Claire, the Volume One store. I've got some at the Nickel in Osseo, which is an antique shop that we love. I've got them in libraries. Have donated a few to libraries.

Jill

Wonderful!

Dave

And yea, it's not all over the place right now.

Jill

OK well, be ready for people to visit your website.

Dave

Oh yea, and I’ve got some with me!

Jill

You do? OK! Well he's in Vilas Hall if you wanna catch him when he walks out the door. (Laughter)

Again thank you Dave so much for sharing this with us. We really appreciate you being in! Dave's book is called Forth FORTH to Basics: A Guide to Going Off Grid (and living more with less) and again it's Dave R Welder if you're looking for the name to look it up and stay tuned because Sam Thayer is just about ready to join us. Thanks for joining us right now on the ideas network.

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